I don’t see it happening.
At least not regularly.
That’s Fedor’s spot.
Of course we will never know for sure…
But I don’t see it.
Plus it’s not like peak Fedor never got in trouble.
His ability to maintain poise and recover was also second to none.
I’ve never said it would be completely one-sided.
I don’t think the range matches up for Fedor. Jones fights tall, pokes with kicks and draws out offense. Foot sweeps, front head locks and upper body clinches are all available to him. Fedor had great clinch work but he never fought a guy like Jones.
It’s irrelevant. Primes never matched up. If they fought today Jones rag dolls him. If they fought when Fedor was in his prime, Jones was basically a Juco wrestler.
I do find it odd that we are only to judge Fedor for his fights in his prime but Jones is a few years older already than when Fedor fell off and he’s being scrutinized heavily for it.
There are a few guys who once you get in the clinch with them, you’re fucked. You’re getting taken down or dumped
Aoki has far and away the best conversion rate with body locks.
Overeem has absolutely incredible sasae and de ashi technique. If he gets a collar tie and under hook you are fucked especially in conjunction with his knees.
Jones has phenomenal all around clinch work, specializing in trips and Greco throws.
Fedor has unparalleled kuzushi and sequences. You never get to be on balance in the clinch with him, violent kuzushi washing machine until someone falls down
I agree with this. I don’t hold that against Jones. He’s probably the best MMA fighter ever and certainly the best lhw. I just don’t think he’s done enough over HW to be called best HW ever.
In an epic fight. Frazier was in his prime and undefeated. Frazier had lost to Foreman before the Thrilla in Manila (3rd fight) but the fight speaks for itself. Greatest fight in boxing history at heavyweight still today without question.
Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman in his prime and no one would say he was not an atg. Holyfield lost to Moorer and Bowe (x2) and only haters would say he’s not an atg. Tyson lost to fucking Buster Douglas in his prime.
All time great and greatest of all time are a lot different though. I don’t see anyone saying Lewis deserves to be called the best ever, or Evander
Fedor does have good clinch work but even in that clip you can see CroCop is a neophyte in the clinch compared to Jones. Cro Cop is also shorter. Jones legs wouldn’t be there to trip. He immediately gets his legs back and ass out in the defensive clinch. Against Fedor, he very likely head snaps into a front headlock from that position.
It’s because Stipe is the first time we’ve gotten to see Jones really move around at HW vs another HW.
And Stipe was carrying 10lbs of ring-rust with his 44yo legs.
I don’t think it’s a question that Jones is the best LHW.
It’s a question of how would he really look at HW had he actually stepped up and proved it over multiple fights against top level HWs.
A lot of questions get answered when we actually see how guys move around and lock up, and how the perceived advantages translate in the actual fight.
Without that – it a lot of speculation.
What I don’t get is why anyone expected anything more from Stipe.
When he fought Francis last time he looked like he just woke up and hadn’t trained at all. Why did anyone think he’d be any different after 3 years off
Except Jones is older now than when Fedor was getting stopped regularly. If his fight with Stipe counts as to how he would look against heavyweights, Fedor getting stopped by Henderson has to be viewed as how he looks against smaller fighters as well. Jones is not as good as he used to be.
Fedor has almost 20 more professional MMA fights than Jon, and God knows how many combat sambo matches
People age at radically different rates for a lot of reasons.
I agree.
Jones isn’t going to stay put, and it can be difficult to control a tall/lengthy guys.
But I also think Fedor likely connects in transition and off breaks.
That’s where that instinct and timing comes in.
The intangibles.
There is the aspect of Fedor’s heavy fists connecting with Jones’ head that might be getting overlooked here, lol.
It’s not strictly a contest of applicable MMA technique.
I don’t remember seeing Jones’s chin really tested, and I believe Fedor would test it.
I’m also just not going to pick a guy who’s had 2 HW fights vs sub-par competition to beat the GOAT HW.
Maybe it’s just me, but that doesn’t seem logical.
You think Jones looks the same as he did years ago? I don’t think it’s even close. Jones wrestled growing up. He has plenty of wear and tear as well.
It all just looks to me like “Judge Fedor on this very specific timeline only but judge Jones only on his recent performances”
Jones still hasn’t lost. Jones in his current form could very well end up losing to top contenders at heavyweight. The difference is I don’t think it would be evidence of anything other than he got older like everyone else.
I think it was more a question of Stipe actually catching Jones with something solid at HW.
He was going to get “out-MMA’d” if he didn’t hurt Jones.
There was a couple times where Stipe looked just a half step away from landing something.
I haven’t rewatched the fight (don’t plan to), but my impression is that a guy who didn’t look like he was fighting in quicksand would have tagged Jones.
And Jones did turn away and get on his bike at least a couple times IIRC.
I wanted to see Jones at HW years ago.
But Jones didn’t want that.
I’m not letting him off the hook.
Meh, I don’t agree with that.
For one Fedor’s decline was more mental than anything.
We can’t just use age in numbers as a reliable barometer.
And this was Jones looking sluggish against a Stipe who looked even more sluggish.
The guys who beat Fedor in Strikeforce were still very much relevant.
But we’re talking about hypothetical HW matchups using a guy who waited this long to test himself at HW – and then look at the opponents.
Again, his LHW resume is not in question.
Jones doesn’t have to fight heavyweight. He never did. He was a fat 235. He’s not a real heavy weight.
Let’s try it this way. Why didn’t Fedor drop down and fight Wand, Rampage, Chuck, Hendo, Shogun, Overeem? Was he ducking the harder division?
Fedor wasn’t exactly looking great against Brett Rogers before he landed the knockout. He wasn’t nearly as unbeatable looking in Strikeforce even when he won.
So again, your contention is that we MUST use a slower fatter Jones to compare against only the best version of Fedor.
It’s a bad faith argument. Fedor can be the heavyweight GOAT. Jones only has two fights at heavyweight. Jones is the MMA GOAT. If Fedor joined the UFC and fought Carwin, Mir, Cain, DC, JDS, Reem, Lesnar ect we don’t even have to assume any of this.
Instead he chose to bounce around with M1 fighting whoever was available
Never said he had to.
But he chose to wait until the best legacy opportunity for him.
If Jones thought he could have moved up and run the table at HW years ago – I 100% believe he would have.
But he didn’t.
Now we have people acting like Jones could beat anyone ever – including HWs.
That’s why it’s a conversation.
And I don’t really buy into the “fat 235” thing.
There have been plenty of undersized HWs who had a lot of success.
Part of the challenge of the division is that it’s more wide open than the others. You aren’t guaranteed to fight someone within 5 lbs of you.
It’s part of it.
Jones is legacy driven, not challenge driven.
No.
The HW champion is the king of the mountain, during Fedor’s Pride run it was stacked.
Pride era LHWs weren’t going to step up and beat Pride HWs.
They could compete – sure.
But even the LHW king of the era Wandy was really pushing himself vs Hunt. Result was an epic fight that I thought should have been a draw.
But Fedor trying to make 205 in Pride shouldn’t be painted as a “step up” in competition.
Look what happened to Shogun when he moved up to fight Coleman, and Wandy the second time he fought Cro Cop.
Fedor, Big Nog, and Cro Cop were definitely the kings of that era in terms of absolute.
Guys like Wandy and Rampage weren’t gonna move up and beat them.
That said there could have been some fun fights… But that’s really not the point.
Mir is the only fair comparison here, maybe Cain by a few months.
Fedor’s prime was over before Werdum and Rogers.
Why is Fedor’s legacy always defined by who the UFC champions after his prime were? Why aren’t you saying “he could have fought Sylvia, Nog, Randy, Arlovski” and the other lot who were champions into eh UFC when Fedor was the pride champion? Why the revisionist history and focusing on the strike force days?