BOO! this man!
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Take it back Limbo!!!
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This is an excellent observation that deserves more attention.
Well said.
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@Canooke how about this:
If we freeze both of them at the MMA record at the same 12-2 area, we have
Do you think Mirko in that stretch has showed worse MMA striking than AP? Is losing to a former UFC heavyweight champion in a year he fought 8 times really that big of a blemish?
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Well, I mean, Cro Cop is a past fighter, so I kinda think we have to focus on his past…
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You carefully selected a patch of their careers where they were both 12-2. Poatan lost via submission when he was a grappling rookie. He was transitioning from kickboxing to MMA. He also lost to Israel who is a very elite striker that Poatan also holds a TKO win over.
More than that, let’s look at all of Mirko’s losses where he was out struck, that took place before the age of 33. He was younger than 33 for all of these losses:
He was KOd by Kevin Randleman when Mirko was 29 years old. Out struck by a juiced Hammer House wrestler at 29.
Mirko was out struck by Fedor when Mirko was 30.
Mirko was out struck by Hunt in a close decion loss. Mirko was 31.
Mirko was KO’d by Gabriel Gonzaga. Mirko was 32 years old.
Mirko lost a unanimous decision to Cheick Congo. Mirko was 32 years old.
Mirko has many more losses where he was out struck but he was 35 for the next one, 36 for the next two, and 37 for the one after that. I’m leaving those ones out for now because you guys are saying that his fighting prime was when he was a sperm, and that when he hit the egg he was never quite as good.
I have to say, regardless of when your prime was, tapping out when you’re still fully conscious because someone punched you in the nose and you didn’t like it (JDS), is not a good look for a fighter, particularly one who’s primary skillset is kickboxing. He pulled a No Mas.
Poatan has one submisson loss, early in his MMA career when he was a kickboxer crossing over, and he’s got the one loss to Izzy, who is again, an elite striker. Poatan also has a TKO win over Izzy.
Cro Cop also has the submission loss to Nog. You can put that next to Poatan’s submission loss.
I can’t believe you guys are ignoring the very substantial weight difference. It is a night and day difference. You can argue about their respective skills and abilities all you want, but no way could Poatan beat the MUCH bigger and stronger Cro Cop…
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but I think that in Cro Cop’s early Pride days, the days his supporters are calling his best, he was lighter than 220. When he was in the UFC he was much bigger, but Cro Cop’s supporters are saying he wasn’t as good by then.
I just looked it up and Cro Cop was 220 against Fedor. I think he was 5-8 pounds lighter in some of his Pride fights before that.
A quick google search says Poatan weighs close to, or as much as, 230 before a cut.
So, they can fight each other at 220. Same size, more or less.
Or if the 240 pound No Mas version of Cro Cop wants to show up against 220-230 pound Poatan, that’s fine too.
Once again randleman didnt outstrike him, he landed one big punch; just because someone got a KO doesnt automatically mean they outstruck the other person. There have been many fights where someone was getting beaten pillar to post, tyen lands one big punch.
Also, Nog is one of the greatest submission artists of all time. Losing to him in that way doesnt tarnish Mirko’s legacy.
Once again, youre leaving out a lot of context.
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No, I didn’t carefully select it. I just picked it because that’s Alex’s record right now.
It’s also basically 4 years into both of their switchovers from kickboxing. It’s a pretty fair apples to apples with where AP is now I believe. Throw AP’s sub loss from 2015 out for all I care.
Again, you keep saying when they were x years old, even though their lives and careers have had wildly different arcs that led to them having wildly different mileages
by 4 years into their MMA careers.
Come on bro, you can’t actually believe getting subbed by a top 3 guy in the world is equivalent to getting subbed by someone no one has ever heard of
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It’s not much different. A striker coming over to MMA and getting subbed by a high level 2003 blackbelt, and a striker coming over to MMA and getting submitted in his first MMA fight by a fighter with a 2015 MMA skillset?
You guys have WAY too much context for Mirko’s duffel bag full of losses. He lost a lot more than Alex and his losses are worse.
Alex lost by submission in his first MMA fight, coming over from kickboxing, and he lost to Israel, whom he’s also beater. That’s much tidier than Mirko’s record, even excluding Mirko’s record past the age of 32.
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Nog in 2005-2006 was the best heavyweight submission artist on earth.
Quemuel Ottoni was never in the top 100 submission guys in Brazil. That’s that’s a huge difference.
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I think our fundamental disagreement is how much age matters when comparing prime.
As a 32 year old guy who fought who now has 7 degenerative discs just in my cervical spine (literally all of them lol) and the a knee the doctors won’t even reconstruct because it needs completely replaced, I can assure you everyone’s 32 is different.
4 years into their MMA careers (not even counting Alex’s dabbling before he came into MMA seriousl), same number of fights, Mirko has a more impressive record than AP does.
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Yep, lets name a current heavyweight with a better jiu-jitsu skillset than Nog.
Prime Nog would still be a top 5 fighter in today’s HW division.
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And you dont have enough, context matters.
And once again the level of competition Mirko faced in K-1 automatically dictates that he was elite.
Poatan is my favorite current fighter, but this is a closer match up than you think.
Especially in a ring. As i said, it could go either way in both instances.
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Cro Cop never had to deal with calf kicks which is ultimately why I think Alex beats him but he’s bigger and more explosive so who knows
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Hug hit Mirko with calf kicks
Calf kicks were around a little back then in k1. Hug even hit Mirko with his famous wheel kick to the calf.
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I don’t see it as much different. Nog was super elite in 2003. Bjj as a whole was better 12 years later, and also Poatan lost by rnc in his very first MMA fight.
Even with the progression in bjj, 2003 Nog is going to be better than 2015 Ottoni, granted, but Poatan was in his very first MMA fight, crossing over from kickboxing. It’s about as relevant as Mirko getting armbarred by Nog.
Poatan got RNCd in his FIRST MMA fight, crossing over from kickboxing. You’re not wrong, Mirko got subbed by a better bjj guy, but it was in Mirko’s tenth MMA fight, and again, Poatan got subbed in his fist MMA fight.
I think I’d rather focus on their performances as strikers in MMA, since I think that has more to do with who would win if they faced each other.
I mentioned it